Venu
The world will revert to Hinduism
Once upon a time the whole world was Hindu. Once again it will revert to Hinduism. A recent survey of church-goers in USA revealed that 76% of them accepted beliefs that are Hindu and contradictory to Christianity - like man having many lifetimes, God being approachable in many ways and not only through Jesus etc. When Islamic societies become democratic, it will also begin to be influenced by Hinduism. (Sufism is already a Hindu influence within Islam.)
Ali
^^
LOL Keep it up with your wet dreams. Hinduism is something that is restricted to caves thats it. While I dont need to mention which is the fastest growing religion of the world According to research in 2050 Russia will be an Islamic state and that is not my wet dream, You can check it on google 2:22 pm (19 minutes ago) Yusuf
@venu sir
>>A recent survey of church-goers in USA revealed that 76% of them accepted beliefs that are Hindu and contradictory to Christianity
Any proof or link on the survey?
I hope the survey results are from reliable sources and not from blog pages 2:41 pm (0 minutes ago) delete Venu
Allah is a myth
Islam says Allah created everything. It also says that Allah was not created, He always existed. This trick in logic is played upon by Islam by calling existence creation and conveniently positing a creator. If existence includes everything, including Allah, where is the need for the concept of a creator? Existence has always existed and the so called creation is but existence discovering itself in various forms. If everything that exists needs a creator, then shouldn't the so-called creator also need a creator? That existence exists is an obvious truth - that Allah exists cannot be proved but has to be accepted as a belief. Islam will eventually be seen as propagating the myth of Allah and will be abandoned as people seek to realize their own potential and Hinduism is what they will turn to.
↓™►ςચ[ℓ]Ţ β૭γჯ̶̶
@Venu
You are such pinkie, showcasing your stinky, and thats not gona bother our backside ok?
With such intelligent and witty sods like you around, I have reasons to feel inferior.
Proving the existence of God is so simple to demonstrate and understand.
One does not need to have a special experience, study or training. What is needed is simply the life experience of being here surrounded with the universe and its components (including humans and their life supporting systems).
How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the existence of the Creator, while you are created and surely you have not created yourselves?
Also nothingness can not be the Cause of your existence. How do you deny the Cause of your existence? It is like a machine denying the existence of its maker and not obeying his or her commands.
and about your "return to hinduism" comment, try facing the mirror sometime if you can, remembering the kind of crap you believe in. You would be ashamed of yourself.
Kill Evil~~
Venu
Hinduism has stood the test of time
@ ™►ςચ[ℓ]Ţ β૭γჯ̶̶
To say everything has a cause is different from saying that everything has a creator. If creation means bringing about something which did not exist before, then whatever exists has always existed, only in different forms. Hinduism talks about cause and effect. Islam talks about creator and created. Hinduism, in its highest teaching, says that the cause and effect are in essence one. Islam says the creator and the created are eternally different. Hinduism teaches man to aspire to his true nature, which is divine. Islam says the only hope of man is to be a slave of Allah. Hinduism is an ancient religion and has stood the test of time. Islam is a young religion and will vanish in the ages to come because man will refuse to remain merely a slave. Man would aspire to his divine self.
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Quote Venu : Why should existence need a creator?
Existence can never have been existed. Existence definitely needs a creator and that creator is Allah.
@ Yusuf.
It depends on how you see it. As Allah exists, He is part and parcel of existence. Therefore why should existence need a creator?
meditation and sufism are things associated with islam and muslims have been practicing this for a long period of time , hinduism is not the root from where these things arise...
@ ~FoRGoT~
Islam, based on the Quran, is a religion that has come much after Hinduism. In fact, Hinduism is said to be the oldest extant religion in the world. Therefore the roots of religion itself, let alone meditation and Sufism, certainly goes back to Hinduism.
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We are not slaves but divine
Those who believe in a creator base it on the fact of our existence and the logic that if we exist, there must have been a creator. But I feel this logic is flawed because if everything that exists needs a creator, why doesn't God, who also exists, not need a creator? For the simple reason that existence does not need a creator. It has always existed. The error of Islam is that it teaches a creator-created dichotomy and prescribes that man aim to be an excellent slave of the creator. While such a prescription may be helpful to some extent, beyond a point it is a hindrance to discovering the truth - the truth that we are not slaves of circumstances but are divine and wholesome.
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Venu
In the begining was the word
ALLAH IS THE UNCREATED CREATOR OF ALL that's it
@ ~FoRGoT~
Both Christianity and Hinduism (I am not sure about Islam) say that in the beginning was the Word. Hinduism calls the Word AUM. If sound triggered it all, was sound a creation or is it something that is inherent at all times in silence? Are sound and silence separate or is one inherent in the other - both being different aspects of the other? I therefore say Allah and his so-called creation are not separate, but one, both being different aspects of the other. Therefore there is no creation, only the One taking on different aspects to manifest various aspect of His oneness.
What has Allah created?
What has Allah created? Did Allah create me? No, my parents did. So we have to regress through parenthood till we come to Adam and Eve and here claim that Allah created Adam and Eve and therefore, inter-alia, Allah created all mankind and also whatever mankind created, like cars and computers. So whatever Allah created, if at all He created anything, was just a thing or two.
The original 'creation'
The description of the creation of Adam and Eve in the Quran say that Allah created them FROM a clod of earth or a drop of water (I think at different places it is said differently). The regression would take us back to the account where Allah only needs to say, "Let it be" and it becomes. Therefore we can come to the point that Allah would have created something FROM WHICH He created everything else. So the question is, what did He create from which everything else arose?
Shabeer
What enabled the 'One' to take over the first form in this Universe? In other words, how did the first form of one come into existence that cascaded the other forms later into the Universe?
Venu
Ah, you are asking about how the One became Many. Well, the One becoming Many and the Many reverting to its oneness is what the drama of life is all about. What is common between the One and the Many is life. What is distinct between the One and Many is the evanescent nature of the Many and the eternal nature of the One. The One is formless and the Many are formed. The One forms itself into Many to enact the drama of its being. Why would God want drama? As mysterious, I must say, as God wanting slaves. I would guess God wants drama to express His potential, both positively and negatively. But it beats me why God would want slaves (as believed in the Quran).
Shabeer
Sorry, if I wasnt clear earlier.
My question was, how did the first form of the one come into existence? Also, how did the one come into existence for it to manifest other forms?
Venu
@ Yusuf,
If you think something as complex as "creation" could not but have been created because of its complexity, think how much more complex the "creator" would be. Then why do you think He does not need a creator?
If I do meet "God", I would not fear Him, unless I discover that He is a tyrant - which I suppose "He" would not be. I would certainly respect the creator, unless, again, I realize that He is a tyrant who revels in roasting people alive in Hell.
Why should I worship Allah? I worship neither Allah or anything or anyone else. In discovering my own potential, I prefer the method of meditation.
The subject of athma , paramaathma etc. are subjects that would unfold our divinity. Unless we are satisfied with being Allah's slaves.
@ Shabeer
Venu
Existence always exists. Your question, if I am not mistaken, is, how did formless existence form itself? While the technique - the how of this happening - I do not know (and am not sure if anyone else knows), the "why" is obvious. Forms are but an aspect of the formless. Also, when did the formless first manifest a form I do not know. Maybe forms always existed because the formless exists. I think our curiosity to know when the first form came into being is based on our being conditioned to the idea of a God starting creation at a certain point in time. Maybe this curiosity would get cured if we realize that eternity really does not have time limits.
@ Hamza You need particles for sound to travel. There can be no sound in empty space , first you need matter only then can one create sound.
But isn't sound itself matter? The question is, how does silence, which is non-matter, cause sound, which is matter? Which is to ask, how did non-matter create matter? We may be baffled because we see one thing as different from another. The nature of our physical body causes us to see reality in a specific way. But if our consciousness transcends the limitations of our physical senses and gets to a higher stage, we would perceive reality differently. Ancient scientists, having mastered the art of altering or refining consciousness, tell us that there is no duality inherent in existence. Duality is perceived by a limited consciousness. They also said that consciousness is not per se limited but chooses to limit itself to generate the drama of life. Therefore there is no creation but a becoming of the One into many by a process of limitation (involution) and the Many realizing the One by a process of expansion (evolution
@ Hamza
To Create = Cause...
To create means to bring into being (or cause) something which did not exist before. But something cannot be brought out of nothing. Since, in the concept of creation, only the Creator existed in the beginning, creation cannot but be a becoming of many by the One, for there was nothing else in existence which could be manipulated to create. Since God is absolute, He could only have reduced Himself for the “act of creation” or, as I would put it, “to enact the drama of life”. Therefore it is easy to see that all existence is one and everything in existence is the formless God in various forms. There is no eternal seperation between creator and created, as Islam says. There is only the oneness of existence, as Hinduism proclaims.
“Create” and “cause” could be used as synonyms. However, create implies a separation between the creator and the created whereas cause implies that the effect had its genesis in the cause and is not a separate entity as it appears to be.
Hamza
But isn't sound itself matter? The question is, how does silence, which is non-matter, cause sound, which is matter?
Silence does not cause sound.
Let there be a Universe which is absolutely empty. Now you will have Silence in that Universe but no Sound. You will never have any sound in that Universe , it will always be silent.
You need objects to cause sound . The presence of Silence is neither necessary nor sufficient to cause sound.
To create means to bring into being (or cause) something which did not exist before. But something cannot be brought out of nothing.
If Create is NOT = Cause and if G-d can only Cause and not create . Then
These two statements cancel out G-ds Causal power.
Let Me show you How
1)To create means to bring into being .... something which did not exist before.
G-d only causes but does not create which implies that G-d didn't Create anything and G-d can't create anything.
2)But something cannot be brought out of nothing
Physical objects can't be brought out of nothing by themselves therefore nothing can be brought into physical state and hence nothing exists i.e. No Physical objects.
3)But causation requires physical objects . X can't cause Y if there is nothing to interact with.
Therefore G-d is Impotent and is incapable of doing anything.
If G-d can't create then he can't do anything.
Hamza
There is no eternal seperation between creator and created, as Islam says. There is only the oneness of existence, as Hinduism proclaims.
You believe G-d is made out of Atoms whereas i believe G-d Created Atoms.
But if G-d is made out of atoms you end with a G-d that has to follow laws of Physics. You will have a G-d that is causally closed in the physical realm. G-d is incapable of leaving the Physical realm.
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@Venu
If you think something as complex as "creation" could not but have been created because of its complexity, think how much more complex the "creator" would be. Then why do you think He does not need a creator?
The term "complexity" holds no importance here. What must matter to you and to evryone is things which are created perfectly and in proportions.
For example, this universe is made up of corruptible material. it is a certainity that Universe is in a state of dying.
Therefore if something has an end it had to have had a beginning.
Using similar terms, God the creator got no end. if sumthing got no end, it has no beginning. God doesnt need a creator. Infact God is the source, source of the primary energy, models around us and this organisation.
If I do meet "God", I would not fear Him, unless I discover that He is a tyrant - which I suppose "He" would not be. I would certainly respect the creator, unless, again, I realize that He is a tyrant who revels in roasting people alive in Hell.
I fear my parents. They made a line for me, with a sign board "No Entry, Do's and dont's".
They made these lines, which must not be crossed, for my own good. Cuz im a child and they saw this world much more than me. They can only think and care for my own good.
A mother wont allow her kid to have an icecream, if he is suffering with cold or fever.
Similarly, God is all-knowing. He cares for us and for the good we want for us.
He may semm tyrant to you. I fear God and love God at the sametime.
Why should I worship Allah? I worship neither Allah or anything or anyone else. In discovering my own potential, I prefer the method of meditation.
Allah needs nobody to worship HIM. It is for our own good sake that we're worshippinh HIM. Infact, salaath we offer is a form of meditation as well.
The subject of athma , paramaathma etc. are subjects that would unfold our divinity. Unless we are satisfied with being Allah's slaves.
God knows evrythin, u knw Not.
Venu
Dear Hamza, First of all, I appreciate your very logical reply to my posits. This way we can have a discussion and get some light out of it. Mostly discussions on this site tend to be arguments or efforts at one-upmanship. May I clarify that I am not antagonistic to Islam as a religion of Muslims. Only, I am unable to see much merit in some of the contentions of Islam and I tend to question these and up to now in my discussions with others, I have not received any insights on Islam that has made me change my opinion on certain matters. Also, I think it may be unfair to quote Hinduism to question Islam, but if I do it at all, it is only the natural urge to back my statements with acknowledged authority. Your arguments are very good. However, I see it in a different way. Allow me to explain.
Venu
Dear Hamza,
Ah, this is the precise danger I alluded to when I said I preferred to use “cause” in a meaning that does not imply the separative action of “create”. In the absence of sound, there is silence. And when sound occurs, there is a “shattering” of silence. This indicates that there is a link between both states. The “link”, you might say, is illusionary as such a thing as silence does not exist – that silence is simply an absence of sound and the absence of something is not an indication of the presence of anything else. I wish to ask, does at some point sound cease? If it ceases, what happens to it? By extension, the question would be, would existence, with its sounds, light, movements, forms etc. cease and if so, what becomes of it? Which is probably the same as asking, what becomes of Allah’s creation after it ceases? Would I be correct in saying that then Allah alone remains as creation would have gone back to its source which was Allah? Does creation disappear or does it change its form to become formless? Does sound cease or does it become silence? Does silence “contain” sound in its silence? I will take this thought forward after your valuable response.
Hamza
@Venu
First of all Thank You.
In the absence of sound, there is silence. And when sound occurs, there is a “shattering” of silence. This indicates that there is a link between both states. The “link”, you might say, is illusionary as such a thing as silence does not exist – that silence is simply an absence of sound and the absence of something is not an indication of the presence of anything else.
If there is a relation should they both not exhibit that relation is every possible Universe.If they are one in the same should they not be the same in every Universe.
Silence is neither necessary nor sufficient for sound.
This needs to be explained.
1)Sufficient Cause : If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y.
Example of Sufficient cause : Fire is a sufficient cause of Heat.
Since Sufficient cause implies that there must be sound if there is Silence but this can't be possible. Therefore Silence is not a Sufficient cause of Sound.
2)Necessary cause If x is a necessary cause of y, then the presence of y necessarily implies the presence of x.
Example of Necessary Cause: Oxygen is a necessary cause of Fire.The presence of fire implies presence of Oxygen. If there is no Oxygen then there can be no fire.
But the Presence of Sound doesn't imply the presence of silence. There can be a Universe where there is constant sound but no Silence . Just like our universe.Therefore Silence is not a Necessary cause of Sound.
Thats what i meant by Silence neither being a necessary nor Sufficient cause of Sound and this shows that silence and sound aren't causally related.
Shabeer
In the absence of sound, there is silence. And when sound occurs, there is a “shattering” of silence. This indicates that there is a link between both states.
There is actually no link. Its pretty simple.
Technically speaking, there is nothing called as 'Silence'. Its either the presence of sound or the absence of sound.
Hamza
I wish to ask, does at some point sound cease?
In Our Universe , No.
In order to have silence in its absolute sense all physical objects capable of producing sound or carrying sound must be removed. (including molecules).Only in an Absolute empty Universe can you have absolute silence.
If it ceases, what happens to it?
It never does. I do not know whether if It is even possible to have absolute silence in Our Universe. Molecules interacting with other molecules produce sound . You need to remove molecules to have silence. But if you do that you can never have sound.
Would I be correct in saying that then Allah alone remains as creation would have gone back to its source which was Allah? Does creation disappear or does it change its form to become formless? Does sound cease or does it become silence? Does silence “contain” sound in its silence? I will take this thought forward after your valuable response.
This doesn't solve anything it is only creating problems.
1) Silence can't have sound or "Contain" sound in itself. That would be a paradox. Can there be change and no change at the same time ? NO. I don't think i need to explain this .
Sounds existence implies non-existence of silence. Both are incapable of existing at the same time.
2) If you say sound returns to silence and similarly all Existence must return to "original form" you will end up with the following scenario :-
a)Sounds return to its original state Silence
b)Sound and silence are mutually exclusive events/entities.
C) Similarly Humans will also return to there original state .Therefore Humans existence and G-d's existence are also mutually exclusive.
This means my physical existence implies G-d's Non-Existence.
Venu
You have forgotten to reply kill evil
@ De.Aquiline
His post came while I was replying Hamza's post. I shall respond to his post. But these days I might be delayed as I am working in a CA firm and we are busy with Income Tax returns and all that - upto the end of this month. So please bear with me. Further, I do not have any ready-made reply to anyone except that I ruminate over what they say and respond with my sense of logic, particularly to posts of significance.
@™KiLLed EviL ჯ
You are stating that the universe is dying but God does not die. This means there is something eternal. Whether whatever is eternal, called God or anything else, is part of the universe or outside the universe makes no difference. The fact remains that existence, which at one point included God and his creation, continues after creation has ended. The question is, where does what “ends” or dies go? Does it become “nothing”? If creation becomes “nothing”, did creation come from nothing? Since Islam says that creation came from (or was created) by Allah, is Allah = nothing?
@™KiLLed EviL ჯ
You must be joking. Does not the Quran state or imply that those who do not worship Allah would be punished eternally in fire?
@ Shabeer
If anything exists, its non-existence only indicates its change of form or its merging into the formless. (I am talking about the existing ceasing to exist - not about some imagined non-existent thing.) When sound ceases, it merges into silence. Therefore silence very much exists, though it may not be fathomable to us at the level of duality.
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
First of all, im glad to have matured contributors in this forum. May Allah grant us more knowledge. Ameen.
Well, let me elaborate these points.
Actually, both sound and silence represents two forms of sounds.
[1] Sound; an audible sound. Sound of the known.
[2] Silence = Non audible sound. Sound of the unknown.
When we seek to immerse ourselves in silences, we are not trying to close or shut our ability to hear a specific sound. On the other hand, in doing so, we are trying to activate our ability to hear a very specific sound. Example to this kind of sound is the sound of our inner soul.
When we place ourselves in four walls of a room, we tend to hear nothing and try to live in silence. In "trying" to live in silence and "loving silence" implies, we love this sound=silence.
Sound=Audible sound=sound of the known
Example: Sound of islamic principles, whispered at ears of newly born child, to call him towards righteous and spiritual life.
Silence=Non audible sound=sound of the inner soul
Example: There is a kind of voice, inside each one of us, which is hidden nd subtle. This is the voice of the soul. Our purpose in life is to reconnect ourselves with voice of the inner soul, the inner conscience.
Therefore, silence means moving away from the xternal world, and conversation with inner spiritual world.
This was in the spiritual sense, and i apologise of it was to be placed sumwhere else but not here. I felt the need and i presented few points.
@ Hamza
IN ORDER TO HAVE SILENCE IN ITS ABSOLUTE SENSE ALL PHYSICAL OBJECTS CAPABLE OF PRODUCING SOUND OR CARRYING SOUND MUST BE REMOVED. (INCLUDING MOLECULES).ONLY IN AN ABSOLUTE EMPTY UNIVERSE CAN YOU HAVE ABSOLUTE SILENCE.
But what about an “absolutely empty circumstance”? Meaning, even if there is sound in one part of the universe, could there not be silence in some other part? Actually, silence is everywhere where sound is, only at a different level. That is, sound gets to lower and lower decibels till silence dawns. Sound has thereby transformed itself into silence. And silence could, similarly, transform itself into sound.
1) SILENCE CAN'T HAVE SOUND OR "CONTAIN" SOUND IN ITSELF. THAT WOULD BE A PARADOX. CAN THERE BE CHANGE AND NO CHANGE AT THE SAME TIME ? NO. I DON'T THINK I NEED TO EXPLAIN THIS . SOUNDS EXISTENCE IMPLIES NON-EXISTENCE OF SILENCE. BOTH ARE INCAPABLE OF EXISTING AT THE SAME TIME.
It is more probably a case of our, with the limited capacity we have been endowed with as humans, not being capable of perceiving two things at the same place at the same time as we are somewhat uni-dimensional. But existence itself is multi-dimensional.
2) IF YOU SAY SOUND RETURNS TO SILENCE AND SIMILARLY ALL EXISTENCE MUST RETURN TO "ORIGINAL FORM" YOU WILL END UP WITH THE FOLLOWING SCENARIO :-
A)SOUNDS RETURN TO ITS ORIGINAL STATE SILENCE (B)SOUND AND SILENCE ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE EVENTS/ENTITIES.
Sound and silence may not necessarily be exclusive entities except to our limited capacity of perception.
C) SIMILARLY HUMANS WILL ALSO RETURN TO THERE ORIGINAL STATE .THEREFORE HUMANS EXISTENCE AND G-D'S EXISTENCE ARE ALSO MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
Conditioned as we are by the world of duality, we see that God’s and our existence are mutually exclusive. Islam certainly conditions Muslims to refrain from going beyond the world of duality into the world of non-duality.
THIS MEANS MY PHYSICAL EXISTENCE IMPLIES G-D'S NON-EXISTENCE.
Erroneous conclusion, I would say.
@™KiLLed EviL ჯ
Venu
You are stating that the universe is dying but God does not die. This means there is something eternal. Whether whatever is eternal, called God or anything else, is part of the universe or outside the universe makes no difference.
It makes a difference. Sumthing which is "Eternal" and things which are "not", makes a "difference".
Creations are in need of their creator. God doesnt need the creation.
The attributes of Allah do not change, develop or transform from one state to another.
Cuz such are the characteristics or attributes of creation, but not creator. Such attributes of creation are "created".
Can you spot the difference now atleast?
and still, your reply was irrelevant to the post i made.
The fact remains that existence, which at one point included God and his creation, continues after creation has ended.
This existence includes "Existence of Creator" and "Existence of creations". Any difference?
The question is, where does what “ends” or dies go? Does it become “nothing”? If creation becomes “nothing”, did creation come from nothing? Since Islam says that creation came from (or was created) by Allah, is Allah = nothing?
Allah didnt create out of a need. The fact that HE is a creator manisfest in HIS creation.
We cannot create. We can manipulate or transform things. We cannot create out of nothing. It is Allah who did.
Creation was created out of nothing, yet created by Allah.
The terms "One who made" and "with what HE made" and "what HE made" are important. These 3 terms are related to eachother but not equal.
And about where does what ends go, only Allah got knowledge about it.
To Him (Allah) is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decrees a matter, He says to it: “Be”, and it is. (Al Baqrah, chapter 2 of glorious quran)
6:32 pm (15 minutes ago)
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@Venu
You must be joking.
I hate sarcasm in serious debates like these.
Does not the Quran state or imply that those who do not worship Allah would be punished eternally in fire?
You contradicting yourself.
I said before as well. Allah didnt need to create. The fact that HE is a creator, came into picture when we look upon the creation.
When Allah didnt need to create, it implies HE needs nobody to worship HIM.
Allah didnot need our worship. When he created us to worship him, he didn’t create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs.
If we worship Allah, it is in no way going to increase the dominion of Allah in anyway shape or a form.
Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man.
Allah created us to worship him, because we need to worship him, cuz HE created us. He got no desires nor needs to look for sumbody who can worship HIM.
Venu
Actually, both sound and silence represents two forms of sounds.
@ KiLLed EviL ჯ
Are you saying that sound and silence are two aspects of one phenomenon? If so, I entirely agree with you and I would extend the understanding to say Creator and created are two aspects of the same phenomenon. That is, we and God are one in essence, different in expressions – much like the waves and the ocean.
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@Venu
You must be joking.
I hate sarcasm in serious debates like these.
Does not the Quran state or imply that those who do not worship Allah would be punished eternally in fire?
You contradicting yourself.
I said before as well. Allah didnt need to create. The fact that HE is a creator, came into picture when we look upon the creation.
When Allah didnt need to create, it implies HE needs nobody to worship HIM.
Allah didnot need our worship. When he created us to worship him, he didn’t create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs.
If we worship Allah, it is in no way going to increase the dominion of Allah in anyway shape or a form.
Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man.
Allah created us to worship him, because we need to worship him, cuz HE created us. He got no desires nor needs to look for sumbody who can worship HIM.
Venu
Actually, both sound and silence represents two forms of sounds.
@ KiLLed EviL ჯ
Are you saying that sound and silence are two aspects of one phenomenon? If so, I entirely agree with you and I would extend the understanding to say Creator and created are two aspects of the same phenomenon. That is, we and God are one in essence, different in expressions – much like the waves and the ocean.
Hamza
@Venu
Meaning, even if there is sound in one part of the universe, could there not be silence in some other part?
Agree. But should we divide The Universe in such a way ? What does the division of Universe imply ? Your next statement will show you.
Actually, silence is everywhere where sound is, only at a different level.
1)The empty Universe example shows that there will be silence in that Universe but no Sound.
2)The division of Universe into parts also implies that there are areas where there are no molecules and therefore it will also have silence but no sound.
"So silence is everywhere where sound is" is an incorrect statement and by Dividing the Universe into parts you actually show that they have no Relation even within Our Universe.
And silence could, similarly, transform itself into sound.
Sound is dependent upon molecules . If there are no molecules how could sound even come into existence.
It is more probably a case of our, with the limited capacity we have been endowed with as humans, not being capable of perceiving two things at the same place at the same time as we are somewhat uni-dimensional.
Then you have to carry the burden of Proof, I don't ,and thats why i will continue to be Neutral towards this idea.
Sound and silence may not necessarily be exclusive entities except to our limited capacity of perception.
How ? Silence can exist with out Physical objects where as sound can't. Even if we consider Silence as something that metaphysically exists its existence is separate from that of sound.
Conditioned as we are by the world of duality, we see that God’s and our existence are mutually exclusive.
But thats only because Sound and Silence are mutually exclusive. You have a great task ahead of you i.e. proving that they can co-exist.
Erroneous conclusion, I would say.
Do silence and Sound represent the same kind of relation that exists between Physical objects and G-d or NOT ?
Hamza
The Division of Universe Into Parts and Creation of Sound
Lets assume There are two PARTS in this Universe
1)One with Molecules = X
2)One without Molecules = Y
Now where should G-d Create sound ?
But this question is incorrect since G-d can't Produce sound in "Y". Creation of Sound in Y assumes presence of Molecules in "Y"
So
A) G-d Can't produce sound in Y
B) G-d Can produce Sound in Y by causing Molecules in X to move to Y.
"B" might look attractive but it also shows that G-d Depends on already existing Physical entities.
In the Empty Universe well G-d can't do anything.
sanam
iraqi muslims embrace hinduism
dear friends,
i think, you should set a goal of discussion.
1. if some one wants to prove that, all religions are true, then he / she is right.
2. if some one wants to prove that, followers of all religion truly follow their religion, then he / she is wrong.
i think only less people understand and follow their religion.
Hinduism is not any religion.
Hinduism is a geographical distribution.
originally it can be called as Vedantist or something like that, you can correct me.
worshiping idols is Prohibited in all religions.
Like Kali Maan,
she got the power of Satan as we see in movies.
to worship Kali Maa, is it proved in any of your book.
to workhip Shri Raam or Shari Kirshna.
Have they ever said in their sayings that worship us.
not a single messenger of Allah, has ever said that worship any one other but the Allah.
If you worship idols, then you worship. Islam can not allow this wrong deed by any person.
1. Follow your books, which teaches only worship Eshwar, God, Allah, Yazdan, Rabi. Different names but the Truth is One.
2. or follow your philosophical, ideological, logical utopia. no one has ever reached to Allah by your philosophical mind.
3. Dialectical Materialism is the most favorite discussion.
4. It says universe is the unity of opposites as you know if you know.
5. Unity of opposites easily prove that only Allah is the only to worship.
6. we are being created, Allah is eternal. (unity of opposites.)
7. we are too many, Alla is single. (Unity of opposites)
8. we have to worship Allah, and Allah is liable to worshiped. (Unity of opposites)
created things can not be worshiped, only creator has to be worshiped. (unity of opposites).
thankz
Zahid..
@sanam
kewl...
Sep 25 (21 hours ago)
Zahid..
Like Kali Maan,
she got the power of Satan as we see in movies.
to worship Kali Maa, is it proved in any of your book.
to workhip Shri Raam or Shari Kirshna.
Have they ever said in their sayings that worship us.
not a single messenger of Allah, has ever said that worship any one other but the Allah.
If you worship idols, then you worship. Islam can not allow this wrong deed by any person.
>Kali was a witch magician, who just got some magic and made her self god..and blind people started following her also..and that tradition is keep on going here..
How the hell a magician can be goddess??
Earlier people wese superstitious so they were very easy to be fooled by others..
>About Ram n krishna...u r ryt , they never said that worship us.
Even during theri life[if we believe their existence], they use to worship some other gods..!!!!
Very strange that god worshiping sum other Gods..!!!
And GOD is for all world, but ram n krishna had limited role, like they cameonly for Ramayana n mahabharat .ntg else they did..so hw can they be god??
>Islam never allow such things, if i say it in other words, Islam never allow superstition..!!!!
Sep 25 (18 hours ago)
Rana
@T.S
[black]hey where the hell is T.S
dar gaya kya..
may b Islam Kabool karne kisi Mufti sahab k pass gaya hoga..[Inshallah]
mere bhaiyo k jawab ne use Qayal kar diya..
Sep 25 (17 hours ago)
"Dr.Shanu"
Ye to in logo ki purani habbit he..
They start topic by thinking that they vl ridicule us, but they get awsome ans. here vch make dem shamefull that they do not post anythng again...
@™KiLLed EviL ჯ
SUMTHING WHICH IS "ETERNAL" AND THINGS WHICH ARE "NOT", MAKES A "DIFFERENCE".
You and I both agree that there is something eternal. You say that this eternal thing, called Allah by you, is outside the universe. I use the word existence and say Allah is included in existence. And because Allah is eternal, existence is eternal, because even if the creation part of existence ends, Allah remains.
Our difference begins when you say creation ends and I say creation as creation may end, but it “goes back” to Allah, from whom it came. (You may say “by whom it was created, if you wish – it makes no difference except that it gives a false impression that creation did not exist before Allah created it.) Allah only manipulated what was already existing in another form. Since there cannot be another thing that exists eternally like Allah, the “manipulation” by Allah is actually Allah Himself becoming the creation. Therefore the Creator and the created are not different in essence.
THE FACT THAT HE IS A CREATOR MANISFEST IN HIS CREATION.
What you say here is what I am trying to say. But I don’t think the Quran or other Muslims would agree with your expression “He is a creator manifest in His creation.” Does this not mean that He and his creation are one? What exactly does the word “manifest” mean to you?
WE CANNOT CREATE. WE CAN MANIPULATE OR TRANSFORM THINGS. WE CANNOT CREATE OUT OF NOTHING. IT IS ALLAH WHO DID.
I think the words “manipulate” and “create” are being used interchangeably. To create you need things. You cannot create out of thin air. Allah could not have created because only Allah existed eternally. So with what could Allah have created? Still, we exist. So how did we come about? If Allah could not have created us, we must then be what Allah is. Thus creation is actually a manifestation of Allah, or a becoming of Allah.
11:42 am (2½ hours ago)
Venu
@ ™KiLLed EviL ჯ
CREATION WAS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING, YET CREATED BY ALLAH.
How can something come out of nothing?
TO HIM (ALLAH) IS DUE THE PRIMAL ORIGIN OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH: WHEN HE DECREES A MATTER, HE SAYS TO IT: “BE”, AND IT IS. (AL BAQRAH, CHAPTER 2 OF GLORIOUS QURAN)
When Allah say “be”, to whom does He say “be”? He has to become whatever he wants Himself because there was nothing else in existence except Allah.
ALLAH CREATED US TO WORSHIP HIM, BECAUSE WE NEED TO WORSHIP HIM, CUZ HE CREATED US. HE GOT NO DESIRES NOR NEEDS TO LOOK FOR SUMBODY WHO CAN WORSHIP HIM.
The Quran says Allah created us to worship Him. So obviously the need is His. If we feel the need, it is only because He created us in such a way that we feel the need. Then also, the need is His.
sanam
@ Venu
Dear Venu,
Sufism is influence of Hinduism in Islam.
Problem is this, no one studies Islam carefully.
Quran teaches spritualism, Islam does not need Hinduism to influence.
Problem is this Islamic spritualism based on the truth that only worship Allah.
1. Nimaz is the practice of Spritualism in Islam.
Quran says, Perfrom Nimaz, in several places.
2. Zikar is the 2nd one practice of Spritualism/sufism in Islam. to recite Allah Allah, La Ilaha Illullah, Allah hoo, Talavat e Quran Pak.
3. Meditation: Nabi Pak said, Perform Nimaz as you See Allah, if you don`t see Allah, Allah beholds you. Both in Sahi Bukhari and Sahi Muslim.
4. A person who is fighting at battle for Islam and the other one who is remembering Allah, the other one is superior.
5. Aitkaaf in last ten days of Ramdhan.
6. Ramdhan.
Hindus spritualism took person away from Allah.
Islamic Spritualism surrounds only in the thought of only one Allah.
and i am surprised, why you people asking these type of questions?
you can find muslim scholars near you to ask these questions.
you only want to share your frustration anger on Muslims by different ways.
Venu
@Hamza
"SO SILENCE IS EVERYWHERE WHERE SOUND IS" IS AN INCORRECT STATEMENT AND BY DIVIDING THE UNIVERSE INTO PARTS YOU ACTUALLY SHOW THAT THEY HAVE NO RELATION EVEN WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE.
Silence exists where sound exists because the two are not exclusive entities (except in our perception). That is, the phenomenon is one where at one end you have silence and at the other sound. The lowering and increasing of decibels is proof of this. However, there is another aspect to this. Sound and silence exist because we exist. Our sense of hearing differentiate varying sounds and we conclude there is sound and silence. If we, the experiencer, do not exist, would there be a differentiation between sound and silence and would they thereby exist? This leads to the question that if the experiencer does not exist to experience the experienced, would the experienced exist? Therefore, in undifferentiated existence, sound and silence are one. The duality begins upon creation. But creation is not something new made by a creator. Since before creation, only the creator existed, the creator would not have had anything with which to created. Therefore creation is only a becoming by the creator – both are one in essence and different in expression.
SOUND IS DEPENDENT UPON MOLECULES . IF THERE ARE NO MOLECULES HOW COULD SOUND EVEN COME INTO EXISTENCE.
If there are no molecules, there may not be sound. But bringing in the requirement of a God to first create molecules for sound to be, is only removing silence from the picture. Silence “creates” whatever it takes for sound to be. Positing a God being the creator of everything denies the possibility that creation or existence has inherent in itself the source of its existence. As a matter of fact, the idea of a creator God as presented by Islam denies the possibility of bridging the duality gulf. This has a negative impact on the evolution of man.
Venu
@Hamza
SILENCE CAN EXIST WITH OUT PHYSICAL OBJECTS WHERE AS SOUND CAN'T.
Sound and silence are not exclusive in the sense that they are not connected. May I give the example of seed and tree? One contains the other, so to say.
EVEN IF WE CONSIDER SILENCE AS SOMETHING THAT METAPHYSICALLY EXISTS ITS EXISTENCE IS SEPARATE FROM THAT OF SOUND.
They may be separate as expressions, but are one in essence.
BUT THATS ONLY BECAUSE SOUND AND SILENCE ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. YOU HAVE A GREAT TASK AHEAD OF YOU I.E. PROVING THAT THEY CAN CO-EXIST.
I would go beyond saying that sound and silence co-exist. They are a single phenomenon experienced as dual due to the nature of the experiencer, that is, us, as we are in our normal consciousness.
DO SILENCE AND SOUND REPRESENT THE SAME KIND OF RELATION THAT EXISTS BETWEEN PHYSICAL OBJECTS AND G-D OR NOT ?
Yes, according to me.
LETS ASSUME THERE ARE TWO PARTS IN THIS UNIVERSE
1)ONE WITH MOLECULES = X
2)ONE WITHOUT MOLECULES = Y
NOW WHERE SHOULD G-D CREATE SOUND ?
BUT THIS QUESTION IS INCORRECT SINCE G-D CAN'T PRODUCE SOUND IN "Y". CREATION OF SOUND IN Y ASSUMES PRESENCE OF MOLECULES IN "Y"
SO
A) G-D CAN'T PRODUCE SOUND IN Y
B) G-D CAN PRODUCE SOUND IN Y BY CAUSING MOLECULES IN X TO MOVE TO Y.
"B" MIGHT LOOK ATTRACTIVE BUT IT ALSO SHOWS THAT G-D DEPENDS ON ALREADY EXISTING PHYSICAL ENTITIES.
IN THE EMPTY UNIVERSE WELL G-D CAN'T DO ANYTHING.
You are assuming that the supposed two parts of the universe are exclusive. They need not necessarily be exclusive
===
sanam
iraqi muslims embrace hinduism
Dear,
YOu are right.
Why I suppose to argue on it?
Sound and silence, unity of opposites. that's ok.
Allah says,
"He created Universe from nothing"
No one can reach to Allah by wisdom or para-psychological phenomenon. Allah is beyond human wisdom and spiritual powers.
That's what Muslim believe or they have to believe.
There is no god but Allah,
It is Muslim kalma.
you know what is that mean,
there is no god, empty your mind, believe in nothingness, and you know, if there is nothing then there is someting,
same vise "but Allah"
how you explain nothingness to something.
nothingness has no shape, time and space.
and Allah is beyong NOTHINGNESS OF NOTHINGNESS SO NOTHINGNESS.
THANKZ
@ Sanam
ALLAH SAYS,
"HE CREATED UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING"
The universe did not come from nothing. It came from Allah. Allah did not require anything to create the Universe. Because the universe is nothing other than Allah. Not even Allah can create something from nothing. That would be equivalent to Allah creating Himself.
Venu
@ Sanam
ALLAH SAYS,"HE CREATED UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING"The universe did not come from nothing. It came from Allah. Allah did not require anything to create the Universe. Because the universe is nothing other than Allah. Not even Allah can create something from nothing. That would be equivalent to Allah creating Himself.
мσιη
The universe did not come from nothing.U were there?It came from Allah. Allah did not require anything to create the Universe. Because the universe is nothing other than Allah.Creator isn't the created nor does the creator resemble any of his creations.Not even Allah can create something from nothing. That would be equivalent to Allah creating Himself.Search for the word "Eternal" in dictionary
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@venu
Allah only manipulated what was already existing in another form.
MY RESPONSE:
We create a chair from wood => Wood comes from trees => Big trees come from small seeds => Seeds come from adult plants to make new plants or trees
As you can see, in the above chain process, at one point, we may conclude that for everything, there is someother thing which stands as a reason for the existence of the previous things. (Point 1)
And at other point, we may conclude that the chain process continues, taking a reverse route. (Trees coming from seeds and seeds coming from trees) (Point 2)
From point 1: One thing stands as a reason for the existence of another thing.
From point 2: And this one thing comes from someother different thing.
Reading this, we may infer that these things are part of existence. And since they are "dependant" on one another for their own management and growth, theres a possibility that they were once "created" to support eachother for a living and work together just like working in an organisation.
Also, some seeds fall from flowers and trees and grow by themselves. They get sunlight and rainfall and take care of themselves.
Question again rises, who created this sunlight and the most wonderful gift to human, the water?
We conclude that this world is a small organisation. Each and every thing is a part of "existence and creation" and they are working together sometimes to support one another and other times for themselves.
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
All this is created by the creator, somebody with supreme power.
The fact that God is a creator, came into picture, just cuz we can witness this sort of creation around us.
We created a chair. We "manipulated" the form of a wood.
Who created this wood? Who created trees? How seeds came into existence? hows unlight and water can help for their growth? How sunlight and water came into existence?? What happned in space? How planets came into existence?
In trying to search for the answers, we found a single source! A single entity!
This entity must be something or someone, which/who must can warrant for its existence, its attributes of being the creator and manager, who created and itself is uncreated (cuz he is the absolute source).
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@Venu
Since there cannot be another thing that exists eternally like Allah, the “manipulation” by Allah is actually Allah Himself becoming the creation. Therefore the Creator and the created are not different in essence.
MY RESPONSE:
A painter paints. If he doesnt, we may not call him a painter. He used different colors and created a different form.
The painting came into picture, cuz painter worked for it.
The creation came into picture, cuz somebody worked for it.
There is a relationship between "creator" and "creation". But creator is not equal to creation. They both are part of existence, i agree.
Matter can neither make decisions nor carry them out. This means that there is a creator, who plan, designs and creates! And here comes the difference!
@Venu
What you say here is what I am trying to say. But I don’t think the Quran or other Muslims would agree with your expression “He is a creator manifest in His creation.” Does this not mean that He and his creation are one? What exactly does the word “manifest” mean to you?
MY RESPONSE:
I said "fact that Allah is a creator, is manifest in HIS creation". [i thought you can easily ignore few typos in ma previous post)
MANIFEST= Evident to senses or obvious for understanding.
We can extract an attribute of our Lord, that HE is a creator, by looking at creation around us and within us.
As i said before, a painter needs to paint if he wants us to call him a painter.
God is the creator, cuz he created things around us.
This doesnt mean both creation and creator are "one".
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@Venu
I think the words “manipulate” and “create” are being used interchangeably. To create you need things. You cannot create out of thin air. Allah could not have created because only Allah existed eternally. So with what could Allah have created? Still, we exist. So how did we come about? If Allah could not have created us, we must then be what Allah is. Thus creation is actually a manifestation of Allah, or a becoming of Allah.
MY RESPONSE:
To create, we need things. How these "things" were created, to create someother thing then?
Point 1: Allah doesnt exists in the world like material objects of physical being.
Point 2: Allah's existence transcends the world of space and time, as HE is the one, who created not only objects and beings, but also all the laws of space and time governing the existence.
Allah is beyond the limits set by "time and space".
Point 3: Einstein proved that we live in a world that is a "space-time" graph.
Point 4: Everything in the universe has a beginning; it is because of this that everything needs a cause. (Law of thermodynamics)
Point 5: Allah got no beginning in time. (Point concluded from point 2)
RESULT:
Since Allah got no beginning in time, Allah got no cause of existence.
Allah is the Creator of time as well as space, He is not limited either by space or time, so He has no beginning in time. Therefore, He does not have a cause.
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@Venu
How can something come out of nothing?
When Allah say “be”, to whom does He say “be”? He has to become whatever he wants Himself because there was nothing else in existence except Allah.
MY RESPONSE:
For ideas to be implemented, plan and planner, both needs to be established!
If i am about to design something, i can arrange for available resources needed. But what if these resources doesnt exist?
Answer is, the creation was done out of nothing. Since "nothing" existed before this creation was done, except the lord, the creator.
HE became the planner. Now he planned. The design and configuration existed in HIS mind. When HE willed, it came out as a physical form and got created.
In Surah baqrah, chapter 2 the Arabic word "Badii-u" is used, meaning "created without a model", or "originated".
No physical model was existing when Allah created this Universe.
Allah states: HE IS THE FIRST N THE LAST, THE OUTWARD AND THE INWARD.
He immediately says after this: HE CREATED THE SKIES AND EARTH.
The raw material for physical universe was as per his plan, his intention within HIMSELF. When HE commanded, it came into existence.
But Allah also revealed that HE created it. Their is a relationship between the creator and creation, but the creator and creation are not equal. Since creator got no form, creation got a certain form.
Allah created out of nothing, implies Allah created from HIMSELF, meaning no raw material existed and HE commanded this "nothing" (having no form) to be like HE wants it to be.
yet, you cannot make the two terms Creator and creation, equal.
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
Minds mind and power are nothing but a cause, an intermediary for new creation.
The universe came cuz of this cause.
Allah says: "We created... with truth".
It establishes that creations are not an illusion, but they are all in fact realities - as real as can be.
So their raw material is bound to be real. And the only material that existed from which to create was truth itself (GOD).
We cannot strike out the term "We created" when we say "created with God himself".
It is HE who created from within HIMSELF (HIS PLAN).
@Venu
The Quran says Allah created us to worship Him. So obviously the need is His. If we feel the need, it is only because He created us in such a way that we feel the need. Then also, the need is His.
RESPONSE :
Allah says in Quran:
"The creation of the Heavens and the Earth is indeed greater then the creation of mankind; yet, most of mankind know not."
[Surah Ghafir,verse 57]
Man is not the greatest act of creation, this universe is far more complex and far more magnificent than man.
Allah does not need our worship, Allah didnt need to create. When he created us to worship him, he didnt create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs.
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
^^^
@above post
Minds mind and power
typo***** : its "Man's mind and power".
™KiLLed EviL ჯ
@Venu
The universe did not come from nothing. It came from Allah. Allah did not require anything to create the Universe. Because the universe is nothing other than Allah. Not even Allah can create something from nothing. That would be equivalent to Allah creating Himself.
The universe did not come from nothing - false, Allah the creator stated that universe was created from nothing.
The universe came from Allah - True, cuz Allah is first (HOLY QURAN).
Allah did not require anything to create the universe - True
Because the universe is nothing other than Allah - False. cuz universe was once nothing. It came into existnce from this nothing.
Not even Allah can create sumthin from nothing - False. Allah can create anything, from nothing, anything and something.
That would be equivalent to Allah creating himself - False.
Venu
@ ™KiLLed EviL ჯ
My question is very basic. If you say that God was uncreated and he created creation, why can’t the same be said of creation - that it is uncreated and keeps on interacting with and within itself to keep changing its expression while remaining the same in essence? The positing of a creator has its usefulness in aiding man who is psychologically immature in stabilizing himself. But believing it as truth beyond a point would only stun man’s spiritual progress.
